the president made clear he does not think ukraine is ready for nato membership. >> i don't think it is ready for membership in nato. holding nato together is critical. i don't think there is unity in nato about whether or not to bring ukraine into the nato family now at this moment in the middle of a war. >> biden's view on the ukraine nato question is not necessarily widely shared by other allies and international leaders. lastly, dozens of experts signed an open letter arguing ukraine needs a roadmap to nato membership now arguing any delay will invite more aggression from russia. biden supports ukraine and other ways. his administration is

announcing the u.s. will send cluster ammunitions to ukraine. the president defended that decision calling it a difficult one. there is pushback from congressional democrats and u.s. allies including the united kingdom who are concerned vital tools could increase civilian injuries and casualties. joined by william taylor, former u.s. ambassador to ukraine. it is great to talk to you. this is a seminal period for europe after decades of relative calm. what is this one things that nato needs to accomplish's for that meeting this year? >> nato needs to make it clear to ukraine, russia, the rest of the world, that ukraine will be in nato at a specific time, at a time within the next year. that will mean that the security of ukraine and europe,

and therefore the united states hinges on this decision. that is the first thing that needs to happen. as you just reported, there is a lot of discussion about this question about ukraine. most of the allies are ready to give an invitation not to join tomorrow or this week. no one thinks that is a good idea, but an invitation so they will be clear that they will be in sometime soon. a lot of allies agree with that. >> the call has been if not now, what are the steps to get there, including ukraine's president saying give us the pathway so we can focus on those steps to at some point be asked to join nato. biden saying, quote, i don't think there is unanimity in nato about whether or not to bring

ukraine into the nato family in the middle of it a war. if we just isolate that one statement, understand there is greater qualifications to the positioning. one might take away from this to say that might encourage russia to maintain this conflict as long as possible as opposed to ending it. >> that is the concern if you don't make it clear that ukraine will be in. if you make it clear that ukraine will join the alliance then the russians accept that or not but they have to deal with that. we are not really all that concerned about the russian reaction. we have seen the russians blustered and bluffed all the way along. >> not concerned about their response? >> no. we are concerned about security of ukraine, europe, and the united states. how do we secure ourselves, ukrainians, and the europeans?

the way to do that is to have ukraine in nato. the russians have never attacked a nato member. that is the way to ensure there is peace in europe. >> tell us about this three country tour, what you think will happen. what is the process that we won't see as president biden makes his way to that very small country of lithuania. i don't know how they will fit everybody there, but they will do it. tell us what that is like >> there is lot of conversation going on right now. it goes on behind the scenes. there are conversations that continue within the u.s. government. one united states has its sin, then the discussions shift as they already have. these are discussions going on in brussels to come up with the communicate. the leaders will

come up with the communiqui this week that they will all issue at the end of the nato summit. in the language there, what they say about ukraine, what they say about security in europe, that will be hashed out until tomorrow or even tuesday morning. >> looking at that map, we can forget finland, sweden, new membership, and how this will change the chemistry of the arc of where nato is coming from and going to. what is that? >> that is a europe that is secure. that is a europe that has defensible boundaries. that is a europe that has commitments to values. all of the nato members have values that ukraine now uses as well. that is democratic principles, democratic practices. one of the things that we shall remember is that russia will be

better off when ukraine is in nato. if ukraine is embedded into this alliance, then the russians will not have to worry like they don't now have to worry about nato attacking them. >> how important is this meeting in 2023 in the meeting in 1983? >> this one now will be clear when they come out of this as to what they will do about security in europe. this is important. in 1983, they were not talking about this. in 1983, we were still in the cold war. this is important to consolidate europe. >> thank you as always for your perspective and experience. i want to bring in senior national security editor for nbc news and political analyst.

what do you think of what the ambassador said in terms of 2023 versus 1983 and the united states role in nato today? >> it is a completely different situation. you have the united states engaged in russia and what was the soviet union in a de facto war through surrogates. it is a dangerous situation. the long-term goal in making ukraine part of nato and strengthening nato is clear. the problem is that the ukrainian counteroffensive appears to be proceeding slowly. there could be a change in that soon. a large amount of american weaponry and aid has gone out to ukraine and there were hopes for a rapid change in the course of the war with ukrainians making gains. that has not happened so far.

>> as they do gather and statements are made and heard, but behind doors as well as in public forms, it really is. how much do you care or want to work with ukraine. that seems to be the frontline question at the moment. president byington has been saying it will be at the same level as israel potentially. that will be financially, that will be politically. is that the right thing to do for nato and is it the right thing to do for the united states? >> the israeli analogy is meant to send a message to the united states stands foursquare behind ukraine and the way we have behind israel since the establishment of the state of israel in 1948. you raised a fascinating historical question by asking us to compare this to 1983. that was right after the shootdown of the korean airliner flight 007. a lot of people killed.

it was a point of great tension during the cold war. i think there are some really interesting analogies to that period. you could argue that tensions are as great now as they have been in the last 40 years. the question is how to deal with those tensions. during the cold war, nato and armed forces in europe were essentially a tripwire. united states provided an umbrella of militant support in case there was a soviet invasion of western europe. what is happening now is there has been a lot more burden sharing some of these countries are developing their own militaries to come into play as part of nato. the whole nato question is much

more complicated and less dominated by the united states. it is more collaborative now. for the first time since that peak of the cold war, they had to consider a russian invasion of nato countries as a real possibility, as topic a in their security concerns. i think president biden has a little bit of a tough sell in the next few days in arguing that they should not have at least a roadmap to ukraine being admitted to nato within the next year or so. he seems to think there are some dangers in doing that. our european allies think there are dangers in delaying. that is a real conflict between allies. >> i'll head to the points that jonathan was bringing up speaking with conservative leaders, he was seeing this was a redefining time for us. he is

talking about central europe. since the 1980s have they had this what is your role, what's my role. they had several decades have relatives understanding or peace or quiet. the difference as we look at nato today and what it's trying to do, he had several working groups like the nuclear planning group and military group, those are smaller entities. is nato too big now or is it the right thing? is it the right size given the idea the superpower is much different today than it was back in 1983? >> i think it is the right size. the key thing here is ukraine. if you combine finland and sweden joining now, it is a broader alliance. it is an alliance that is a direct challenge to russia in terms of that many borders.

there are not neutral borders of the world for decades against finland. this all comes back to russian president vladimir putin. several weeks ago, he had a rebellion on his hands. it is not clear how long he will hold onto power in russia. i think he could if he were to strike a settlement soon. the key question is how do you pressure russian president vladimir putin more effectively? is it admitting ukrainian immediately? to call him to back away for what has been a disastrous war for himself and russians? many of whom died will not provoke "you will see some middle ground stuck in this. >> we have only talked about ukraine. we have not touched on china, north korea, and iran, all of which are topics that will be percolating in the next week. they both will stick around. max, a look at the rise of russian president vladimir putin's former protigi who led

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welcome back. on the heels of the wagner rebellion, correspondent richard engel examined the trajectory of the group's leader whom he has been tracking across the globe for some time. here is a look at revolt from within, the rise of wagner which profiles the one time beaten protigi who turned on his boss to launch a mutiny against the kremlin. >> reporter: much remains unclear when he launched his mutiny, how much was preplanned and what would happen next. he undeniably exposed cracks on russian president vladimir putin's grip on power. for a leader like russian president vladimir putin, showing weakness can be dangerous. russia may look like a state. those who know it well say under russian president vladimir putin, it has become a mafia on

with nuclear weapons. >> putin is probably more likely -- >> on june 24th, he faced the biggest challenge to his authority and his more than two decades of power. a member of his trusted inner circle dared to revolt and marched his army of mercenaries into russia. give ginny per goshen had reason to be angry. he had raised a private army called the wagner group. and send them to fight russian president vladimir putin swore in ukraine. his men were being slaughtered. per goshen blamed russians armchair generals running the war of sabotage.

>> there was a mutiny against his armed forces. >> it is a fight between the gangs. >> he was rattled and seemed to be caught off guard. >> preclusion is entirely a creature of life. he does not exist without content. this is a frankenstein scenario. >> i've seen firsthand how the one-time petty thief built a criminal empire in syria, africa making him powerful on the to challenge the boss.

>> it is to be continued. >> he estimated per goshen feeling to appreciate how powerful and how angry his underling have become. >> revolt within the rise of wagner, you can catch that streaming on peacock >> next, the case that opened the door to a hazardous deposition for donald trump. stick around. stick around.

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page. strauch on page worked on the russian investigation with special counselor robert mueller. they were removed in 2017 because of text messages obtained and released by the justice department. conversations were critical of trump including one calling him a lonesome human. page resigned as the fbi's counsel. strauch was fired the same year. the two filed separate lawsuits after the drg and fbi alleging privacy violations and wrongful determination. the justice department argued that newly available evidence from christopher reeve's testimony and the testimony of other government officials was enough so the deposition was not needed. justice set a deposition from trump should not be considered. federal judge amy berman jackson said the deposition could move forward.

the worry if trump is deposed. in 2021, he was awarded to testify under oath who were roughed up by security guards in front of trump tower during the 2016 campaign. during his deposition, the former president said he feared protesters would hit him with tomatoes, pineapples, and other dangerous fruit. trump saying that you can be killed if that happens. last year, trump gave a deposition in e.g. carol deposition case. trump confused carol with his second wife undermining his indefensible rhetoric about his type and struggle to remember the details of his adulterous past. joining us is former u.s. attorney and legal analyst david and jonathan back with us as well. barbara, why is this case important?

>> the allegations are that peter struck was wrongfully terminated. more importantly is allegations under the privacy act. the two exchanged text messages. i don't defend what they said on their work devices disparaging donald trump and others inappropriate behavior and perhaps there was a reason for discipline or determination. where they have a strong case as this privacy act where text messages were shared with the press. text messages are not a matter of public record. they're not something that should've been produced by the press and if they were that opened the door for a lot of damaging reporting about them. that is a basis for their privacy at claims. they want to get to the bottom of who ordered this which is why they're interested in the deposition of donald trump.

>> you look at the development of this case justice saying you can have this deposition and it's not wanted, though. you might think everybody would want another deposition because all things being equal you might get the slipups that might provide information from donald trump. it doesn't seem to fit what people might think would be desired. >> the justice department has the job to call them as they see them. they represent the office of the president of the united states. even though there may be something that donald trump says is damaging to him personally can be used in another case, that's not there mission here. they believe that this claim can be decided without his deposition it is their job to defend their deposition.'s

>> jonathan, why is this important politically? >> it's another brick on the edifice of donald trump's -- to give you some sense of how extensive this corruption is, there was another story that relates to page that just broken the last couple of days the former chief of staff kelly has indicated that when he was president donald trump wanted to sick the irs on page which is illegal. there was a post watergate statute explicitly prohibiting a president from doing that and it was one of the things that got nixon into trouble, abusing the irs. that is police state tactics. the fact that that was a c list story way down the list of stories in the last 72 hours indicates how much corruption

there is. we can't even keep up with the level of corruption surrounding donald trump. >> this gets added to a long list. where does this fit into that that the former president has had to face and will face? >> it is another example of him using the powers of the presidency to strike out his perceived enemies. sicking the irs on people who you dislike or suspect is what richard nixon did. it was made illegal because the federal government, whether the irs, justice department, or fbi should not be used to punish presidents perceived enemy or to protect his friend. this is the same pattern he has talked about if he wins reelection taking tighter control of the justice department and the fbi and

pulling special counsel to look at his enemies. all of this is pointing toward the pattern of him using the federal government to gain political power and smear his enemies. that is something we have not seen since nixon. >> let's move to that for a moment. it says one of transformer chiefs of staff john kelly said that trump discussed having the irs and other officials investigate page. that is what david and jonathan were just mentioning. how will this factor into trump's upcoming deposition? >> it is a question that he could be asked to go to his motive. i imagine that is a motive lawyers would want to ask him about. it is dangerous ground for him

to be in a deposition. he has damaging information. he is obligated to share it truthfully. if he fails to, he could be in trouble for perjury. he has had difficulty to questions in a straightforward matter. his method of speaking has been described by former fbi director james comay as word salad. in a deposition, you can't get away with that. lawyers have all day. there is no worry about whether the viewers will get bored watching. they will ask all day, pin him down and demand he answer the question. it is a peerless situation for him to be in to answer these questions under oath. >> plaintiffs have the burden of showing their privacy rights were violated. it could result in money damages by the government. they would not be against donald trump personally. it would be against the united states government. that is their goal to be vindicated for this violation of privacy rights. it holds deterring this

information in the future by government officials. >> always great to speak with you. thank you for your time today. jonathan, we will see you in a bit. warning signs for presidential campaign ron desantis. even his own super pack admits the florida governor is way behind. behind. recommending things that i know work. for copd, ask your doctor about breztri. breztri gives you better breathing, symptom improvement, and helps prevent flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed.

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campaign is already spiraling out of control and losing steam. as a spokesperson put it, quote, we are way behind. there are a number of theories as to how the florida governor got here. soon after he launched his candidacy, the wall street journal surmises the case of mixed messaging, quote, he is trying to sell himself to republican trump foes many of whom are moderate at the same time appealing to trump fans by picturing themselves as more conservative on key issues. new york times op-ed writer frank bernie saying it is because desantis is running, quote, one freaky and unsettling presidential campaign more focused on putting certain americans in their places than on listing others to new heights. that is a couple of use. here is desantis himself trying to explain what happened this morning on fox. >> i am wondering what is going on with her campaign. there was a lot of optimism about you running for president earlier in the year. what happened? >> these are narratives. the

media does not want me to be the nominee. >> jonathan is still with us. also joining us, republican congressman carl's goodbye:. let's start with you on this. is it the media? is it not? the polls seem to say it is desantis who has had his day and now it is going the other way. >> richard, it is the fact that ron desantis has tried to run a copycat campaign. he is trying to use the trump playbook. he did that successfully in 2018 when first elected governor. a lot of people didn't know who he was. he wrote trump's coattails. he got on cable news a lot and kissed up to trump and followed the play to victory. donald trump is standing in his way. if you are going to defeat someone, you can't do it by

copying them. people have a choice between the invitation and real thing, they will pick the real thing. he has to understand he has to try to distinguish himself from trump. he will not do that by out chomping trump on issues like immigration. that is not going to work. he needs to explain why donald trump is bad for the party, why his bad for the country why the movement lost three general elections in a role row. that is his chance. he will not do it by imitating donald trump and copying him. >> according to the wall street journal, he is also trying to appeal to the flow. he is trying to get those who are very true maga lovers and also those who are not. >> it is very difficult to try to have it both ways. those who embrace donald trump

and those who would like to see him move on and come off the national stage, they don't have very much in common. that's why if someone will defend donald trump, they are not going to do it by appealing to the different factions of the republican party and trying to build a coalition that way. it is difficult to do because trump is so polarizing. you have to show a new way. distinguish yourself in a way that attracts people and that does a quantum leap inside the republican party and leaves all of this trump and anti-trump stuff behind. >> one of the points is the beauty of being an incumbent you could have a maybe two ways. as a challenger, you have to stay true down one note. that's what you have to stick to. what do you think? >> especially if you have c-

political skills. as a guy for more than 30 years, i have been looking at political horse flash in early primary and caucus states. this guy works well at the state level the way scott walker did in wisconsin some years ago. he is not ready for the prime time. he can't hit the big league pitching. he has a bad strategy is the former congressman indicated. i think he also doesn't get fundamentally that politics is about addition, not subtraction, unless you donald trump. he has five endorsements among house republicans. trump has 60. you have to go reach out and connect with people, which ron desantis does not do well. many describe him as a cold fish in person. that is not a good place to be

if you are trying to put together a national campaign. yes, he has raised a lot of money. in the past, we have had many republicans who have raised a bundle and they flopped. they don't even get out of the gate. unless he changes his strategy. he is on the trail, he is looking at early elimination. >> one of the questions that might be given the reporting that jonathan is talking about not doing so well with folks and people, not as much of a people person as trump, but it's hard to be in the same category, is that he has focus. desantis is online more than he has done other things. is that something hurting him at the moment because he has doubled down on nine and digital? >> i think he really needs to do the best he can. we see his wife out on the trail more. he has to humanize his

candidacy. he has to open himself up to people. he has to hope republican primary voters understand who he is and what motivates him. he did not have to do that to become governor of florida because he followed the trump playbook. he told the base he was a trump acolyte and that was enough. i think donald trump has two goals. number one is to win the republican nomination. number two is to make sure ron desantis doesn't win the nomination because trump considers him a traitor. that is a whole separate issue. desantis does need to do more retail politics. he has to sit down and have more candid interviews where he opens up and shows he has got a lot more humanity in him. he should focus on his economic record. the state is doing well when it comes to job growth, unemployment, and people moving to the state. he is talking about all of these divisive issues, trying to imitate donald trump, and it

is not working. >> we got the announcement from the iowa republican saying they will have their caucus june 15 which means he will see new hampshire tuesday january 23rd with those dates. we are closing in towards those debates. will he jeb bush, if you will, before even getting to the first debate? >> i am not sure what the answer to that is. he has the support of kim reynolds, the governor of iowa. a lot can change between now and those caucuses. he has to stop shooting himself in the foot. he propagated this bizarre homoerotic as well as homophobic video that really

hurt him. almost everybody in this country know somebody or have someone in their family who is . to go after trump for saying semi supportive things about the lgbtq community in 2016, that was a very odd approach. even in a state like iowa. he has a steep hill to climb. it is too early to write him off entirely. we have seen candidates who have dipped in the polls, come back, including joe biden on the democratic side. a lot can still happen but the omens are not good for him now. >> have a good sunday. after the break, the life and regret the father of the atomic bomb. we will speak with the director of the new studio production to end all war. oppenheimer and the atomic bomb. bomb. after the best nap of my life... and papa is hungry.

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oppenheimer was the father of the atomic bomb. >> who ever gets bombed first will run the world. >> to end all war, next on msnbc. j nexrobert oppenheimer. y may not recognize his name but you know how he changed the course of human history. is the father of the atomic bomb. almost 80 years after creating that weapon, he is the subject of the highly anticipated

universal so oppenheimer from director christopher nolan. if you are excited for that movie, make sure to catch the new nbc news documentary to end all war oppenheimer and the atomic bomb, which premieres tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern. >> oppenheimer was saying to himself i must remain conscious. i must remain conscious. >> seconds or hours. >> all of a sudden -- >> the whole place lit up. >> joining me now as christopher castle, the director and executive producer of the film. great to have you. what do we learn after watching

this film? >> we learned a lot. we learn about the public it is story behind the man who created the atomic bomb. we learned the inventor of this terrifying technology had a change of heart in the years after and not too long after and became a leading voice of caution and a leading voice of restraint that the arms race to cold and was there because of his operation to the proliferation we ended up seeing with the hydrogen bomb not only made by the united states but also the soviet union from this one bomb or two bombs within 15 years. he saw the writing on the wall. he saw the danger behind this, even though he was the architect behind it, did

everything he could to prevent that from happening, and was unsuccessful. >> what is the approach to your film? how do you get the story down? >> most of the people who knew oppenheimer or worked with him have passed on at this point. we did get an incredible roster of interviewees, people who have written books, including khyber, who wrote american prometheus. richard rhodes who wrote the making of the atomic bomb. these guys talked with everybody that knew oppenheimer and worked with him. john else who directed an oscar-nominated documentary in 1980 called a day after trinity. these guys were so excited to talk to us. the story is compelling to the people that know it well. we got enthusiastic participation from people who know the story. >> tell us about who oppenheimer was as a person if

you were to meet him as you characterized him using these interviews as well as a lot of footage in the pictures, which we showed a little bit of in that clip. >> he was loved and hated, he was charming, but he could be arrogant. he was brilliant, but also in some ways, naove. he has so many different dichotomies that go on within him, which makes him a fascinating character. even his career trajectory has a dichotomy to it. at one point, he was the most famous scientist in america. he got a lot of credit. it was his bomb that sealed the deal in japan, or so a lot of people thought. he got tremendous credit for a. he was out of government, having been banished, because he had become a voice of restraint. he was in the way of the proliferation of this great

beef that he himself had unleashed. >> he is a mythical figure. when you go through the documentary, and you also see the narrative film, out through universal pictures, which is a sister company of nbc news, into a working together on this, that is fairly uncommon. why does it make sense to have both? >> it was a wonderful relationship in that from the beginning it was made clear they wanted this documentary to stand alone, to be its own thing. you won't see movie clips. it is not going to have the feeling of a press release for the movie. it is meant as a compliment, as a primer, to help people understand the story. it is well worth watching before seeing the movie. it will have more meaning in some ways after the movie.

you could go both ways. i recommend watching it before and after. christopher nolan is interviewed in it. it gives some great insight into what he thought oppenheimer's character was like. it does stand on. it is a compliment. >> we have watched the narrative film. we see the documentary and we will see the narrative films. this is the plan from the beginning. i am looking forward to it tonight. thank you so much, the director of to end all war. oppenheimer and the atomic bomb, and nbc news studio production ends next. congratulations again. we will be right back. we will . n that lets her get exactly what she wants and save on every perk. sadie is moving to the big city and making moves on her plan, too. apple one, on. now she's got plenty of entertainment for the whole ride. finally there! hot spot, on.

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to end all wars next. enjoy. enjoy. -(clock ticking) -(birds chirping) j. robert oppenheimer: i have been asked whether, in the years to come, it will be possible to kill 40 million american people by the use of atomic bombs in a single night. i am afraid that the answer to that question is yes. -♪ -(clock ticking) jon else: robert oppenheimer was the father of the atomic bomb. he was this complex ball of contradictions.